Staggered string holes

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Veenture
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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby Veenture » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:00 pm

Bob Shade wrote:Hey guys! Some guys may not want to hear this but after building these guitars by hand myself, you get to notice things that you would not notice otherwise. I have drilled enough of the solid brass rockers for Hallmark guitars to know that it is nearly impossible to make a perfectly straight line of holes all the way across the rocker even with my heavy duty floor stand drill press and a machine vice. One or two holes always seems to be a tiny bit off or not just perfect. If we had modern machinery like a milling machine this would not be a problem, but how many luthiers have a milling machine laying around?

So what do you do? Throw out a batch of rockers you just took all that time to be drilled out after having paid good money to have them cast? NO!!!....you may laugh but.........have the holes a bit off in your original pattern so it will be forced to come out a bit off to begin with and tell people it is now compensated!

We all know Semie would not throw ANYTHING away, he could not AFFORD to. From the re-made Guild vibramutes used on the 63's with the Guild name simply ground off, to misplaced fret markers drilled out and filled with dust and glue, to bridges mounted in the wrong place and left that way to sell, the list goes on. In those days you were lucky to find the money to eat with if you were a full time small shop luthier.

Another example of Semies creative salesmanship was the slanted neck pickup. On a Mosrite. Semie stated that it balanced the tone. Rubbish. From a builders standpoint, you would have had to make two different pickup covers made for the strings to be aligned with the polepiece screws if the neck pickup were horizontal at the neck, and the same at the bridge. This is because the strings width is different at the bridge than it is at the fingerboard due to the nut being much smaller in width than the bridge. Right? So how do you get the polepiece screws to be in perfect alignment at the neck when you are using the same pickup as at the bridge? Tilt one. Presto! You now have the "All New Balanced Tone Neck Pickup"

Here is another example, Semie claimed the 80's pickups were self sheilding because there was a piece of aluminum foil on the bottom of the pickup. Not true, the pickup would have to have been completely wrapped in copper foil and a ground wire soldered to it for the pickups to be completely shielded. My theory is the aluminum foil was cheap and made the pickup have a better presentation when the foil was on the bottom of the brown goop squirted in the pickup that appeared to be construction adheasive you buy in a tube at Home Depo.

And this is not just for Mosrite but Fender and Gibson as well. If Gibson made a gutar (Les Paul for example, and I have seen a few of these) that the bridge was mounted in the wrong place.......well you guessed it, it got a plate put over the holes that said in nice pretty letters " Custom Made" then the holes were re-drilled in the desired position. And it was sent off to a dealer.

So to answer the original question...in my best opinion......I have to agree with Terry....Bill Gruggett agrees with this too...the quote un-quote compensated holes in the rocker do nothing. The term compensated was used as a sales pitch for a tailpiece that was nearly impossible to drill perfectly straight so another pattern was used. Does this make these any less desirable? Not for me! I like hand built well made guitars that have a story.

And to answer the next question, why did they make the die cast in the same version? What would YOU tell people who bought your guitars for the last 3 years? Those were not made right?

I hope this is not offensive to anyone, but I had to comment.

Bob Shade
Not offensive at all Bob, the truth may always be revealed! I’m glad you shared your sobering view because what you say sounds very plausible to me. Perhaps the following needs another thread but I had similar thoughts about the slanted pickup with regard to the alignment of the pole pieces with the strings and I can fully agree with you about the reason for the slant of the Mosrite Neck Pickup.

(see also my post: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=820&p=7107&hilit=slanted+pups#p7107 )

However, in the case of Leo Fender’s slanted pup on the Stratocaster for example, it has to be a different story since the slanted pup is the one closest to the bridge where the strings are spaced widest making alignment even the poorest of all the three (single coil) pickups! Moreover the slant is in the opposite direction to the Mosrite’s slant and this is where I have to agree with what Aaron (oipunkguy) had to say about it:

oipunkguy wrote:Hey Veenture,

the only reason for a slanted pickup is tone. a strat guitar is a perfect example. if you flip through the different tones on the pickups, the tone has a more treble bite the closer you get to the bridge, and bassier the closer you get to the neck. slanting a pickup (in the case of a stratocaster) would give more treble on your higher strings, G,B,high E. the reverse is also true, that in the case of a mosrite ventures model, a slanted neck pickup would have a fuller bassier tone on the high notes.
of course it does look cool too...hope this helps, cheers!

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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby bakeoboy » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:02 pm

I always thought the staggerd holes in the tailpiece gave the Mosrite more of a "steel-guitar" vibe,when it is used.

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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby mark1 » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:17 pm

Thanks Bob. Thats the kind of answer I was looking for.What you said makes perfect sense.Thank you sir! But, I still like Dekes answer..........."But it looks cool". Bob, I can't see how you have offended anyone. Peace and keep the chrome side up.

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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby Veenture » Thu Sep 17, 2009 10:54 pm

mark1 wrote:Peace and keep the chrome side up.
I like that one!...and oh, I'm not ready yet for that pop quizz... :D

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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby MWaldorf » Thu Sep 17, 2009 11:45 pm

Would it be too much to suggest necessity as the mother of invention here? I believe what Bob says about the difficulty of drilling six holes in a straight line, but I still think that there was thought put in to the placement of the holes beyond what would be less obvious to align. Also, look at the drawings in the patent filing, especially figures 8 and 9. There are individual height adjustment screws for each string retainer. In the patent explanation on page 5 it states:
Mosrite Patent wrote:The screws [90] may be adjusted, so that the individual blocks [54a] may be set at any desired elevation. This provides the desired misalignment of the respective apertures, so that the aforesaid effects (ed. the vibrato) may be achieved with a minimum amount of mis-tuning of the instrument.

So, even if the original reason for not having a straight line is because it wasn't feasible, it seems Semie put some thought into the final orientation in hopes of mitigating tuning issues during vibrato use.

Image

As for the neck pickup, I think there was more to it than the pole spacing. There were guitars from other brands using the same pole spacing on neck and bridge pickups. Later the Mark Vs and Celebrities used the same pole spacing on the neck and bridge with parallel alignment without issues. Some of Semie's single pickup guitars from the 1950s have angled pickups. Besides, there were other designers looking to capture tones from different areas under the strings - check out the 1940 Gibson ES-300 below, with a 6.75 inch long pickup!

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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby dorkrockrecords » Fri Sep 18, 2009 12:17 am

MWaldorf wrote:Would it be too much to suggest necessity as the mother of invention here? I believe what Bob says about the difficulty of drilling six holes in a straight line, but I still think that there was thought put in to the placement of the holes beyond what would be less obvious to align. Also, look at the drawings in the patent filing, especially figures 8 and 9. There are individual height adjustment screws for each string retainer. In the patent explanation on page 5 it states:
Mosrite Patent wrote:The screws [90] may be adjusted, so that the individual blocks [54a] may be set at any desired elevation. This provides the desired misalignment of the respective apertures, so that the aforesaid effects (ed. the vibrato) may be achieved with a minimum amount of mis-tuning of the instrument.

So, even if the original reason for not having a straight line is because it wasn't feasible, it seems Semie put some thought into the final orientation in hopes of mitigating tuning issues during vibrato use.

Image

Interestingly enough, although I've never seen a Mosrite tailpiece with the individual, adjustable string blocks, that is the exact design Micro-Frets used on their Calibrato tailpiece.

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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby Veenture » Fri Sep 18, 2009 3:09 am

Very interesting observations guys.

I think Mel has done an excellent job at research, also including pictures to help explain his point (if any need for that ;) )on these two Mosrite features and so helping to clear up some of the questions in our minds relating to them :shock:

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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby MWaldorf » Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:46 am

OK, to take this one step further, here are the claims on the Mosrite patent. Note that the primary claim is the enhanced tuning provided by the string retainer, followed by the roller bridge and shoulder strap.

Mosrite Patent wrote:The present invention relates to a lute-type stringed instrument, such as a guitar, or the like, and it relates more particularly to an improved stringed instrument which includes, for example, a vibrato tuning capability, and which also includes other unique features.

Many present day guitars, and similar stringed instruments, are equipped with a vibrato tuning unit. The musician, by a manual manipulation of the vibrato unit, can control the tone of the instrument. However, difficulties have been encountered in the past in providing a vibrato tuning unit which will operate satisfactorily.

Specifically, most of the prior art vibrato tuning units are incapable of varying the tone of all the strings of the instrument by an equal proportion of the musical tones produced by the strings. This means that when the vibrato unit of the prior art instruments is actuated, the tone of the particular chord being sounded by all the strings does not remain in tune.

An object of the present invention is to provide an improved vibrato control in a stringed musical instrument such as a guitar, which control may be manually operated so as to change the tone of the musical instrument without mis-tuning effects.

It is also common practice to provide a strings musical instrument, such as a guitar, with a bridge adjacent the vibrato control unit, the strings of the instrument being stretched by the vibrato control unit across the bridge.

Another object of the present invention is to provide an improved bridge in a stringed instrument which is adjustable for the individual strings, so that each string may be adjusted by the musician to as near perfect pitch as is humanly possible.

Yet another object of the invention is to provide such an improved bridge which is equipped with wooden inserts so as to enhance the richness of the tone of the instrument.

A still further object of the invention is to provide such an improved bridge which includes rollers for receiving the strings of the instrument; so that when the tension of the strings is loosened or increased under the control of the aforesaid vibrato unit, the rollers of the bridge roll with the strings so as to prevent rubbing or dragging of the strings across the bridge, thereby to increase string life and to decrease string breakage.

Yet another object of the invention is to provide such an improved string instrument having a uniquely formed and conceived shoulder carrying strap assembly.
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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby dubtrub » Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:54 am

Thanks Mel, for researching that.

Kinda goes along with what I said in my first post. ;)
dubtrub wrote:Basically it boils down to staying in tune while depressing the vibrato.

No more speculation as I doubt Semie would have outlined the logic behind the offset string holes by patenting the idea if he simply had made a mistake while drilling the holes.
Danny Ellison

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Re: Staggard string holes

Postby MWaldorf » Sat Sep 19, 2009 12:03 am

As an aside, the Vibramute wasn't the only attempt at a solution to this problem. Another was the Epiphone Tremotone, which functions much like a Bigsby, except each string goes around a cylinder of a different radius. Here's one pictured on a mid 60s Casino. I've never tried one myself to see how well it works. Looks cool and a bit easier to string than a Bigsby!

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