Truss rod pictures/repair?

drbassman
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Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby drbassman » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:18 am

OK, I thought I'd start a new thread rather than pirate Dubtrub's any further.

I have to say, the design and ease of removal of the truss rod from my Celebrity bass is really an engineering marvel. Why you have to tear a Gibson or Fender apart to fix a truss rod is beyond me when the Mosrite folks came up with a much more elegant solution.

So, here's what I've got. The threaded rod is slightly bent under the sleeve and when I try to tighten it inside or outside of the neck, it won't go any further. If you look closely at the second picture, you can see the rod is angled upward ever so slightyl, but it seems to be enough to prevent further travel of the nut's downward pressure. I've seen this on numerous basses where owners force a large socket into the pocket and end up bending the rod while trying to adjust it. Had a Gibson like this only worse.

So, what's my next step? Anyone make replacements for these or is repair my only option? I hate to try an bend the rod back, it always just weakens it. Any helpful hints?

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Re: Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby Bushers » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:48 am

Looks to me that there may possibly be a ridge (or some kind of burr/rust) that has been created by the sleeve on the threaded section, preventing the nut from being tightened, this has probably been created by the slight bending you're seeing there. If there wasnt a ridge, the sleeve should pass over that slight bend regardless, the friction forces to restrict would be surpassed by the nut tension force.

Looks to me to be a real simple repair, if you were to grind off the sleeve, straighten the threaded section and then blend out any rough edges, then re-weld either a new sleeve or the same one (cleaned up) you should be good to go...

(BTW I'm an ex toolmaker and now aerospace design engineer) :mrgreen:
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Re: Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby drbassman » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:46 am

Good news. I got a better grip on the rod and the nut tightened down nicely and pushed the movable section with ease. Guess I didn't have a good enough grip on it. I noted the slight bend was upward in the picture and it's actually the opposite. I was in a hurry to get to work this morning! It seems the bend doesn't interfere with the sleeve's downward travel, so I'm gonna leave well enough alone.

So, I'm thinking I need a better wrench than I have now. I was using my old Ric screwdriver-style nut driver and I don't think it gives sufficient leverage. I'm going to get a 1/4" truss rod adjustment tool from Stew Mac and that should work better. At least I know the rod works and how to get it out should it need further work. Based on the design, it looks like putting pressure on the headstock to remove the relief before tightening the nut is more important on this bass that others I have.

Thanks again for your reply Bushers, hopefully we won't be doing any welding on this one!!! As a professor of health administration, I'm at the mercy of other more qualified folks for things like that!

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Re: Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby dubtrub » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:53 am

That is the same truss rod in my bass that I'm working on. I spit the weld at the end to separate the the two rods. I the cold bent (as it is soft metal) everything back into shape, and re brazed it back together. If you are at the end of the travel for adjusting the nut tighter, you can move the flat bar forward or back to get the amount of thread for adjusting. Then simply braze the two rods back together. If the threads are damaged, you can re-cut the threads with the proper die before brazing it back together.
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Re: Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby Mr. Bill » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:20 am

Dr Bassman:
Great photos! This really makes it easy to understand what's going on here.

I agree with Bushers, there seems to be some fairly deep scoring in the unthreaded section of the lower rod. Cleaning it up and lubricating the sleeve will probably do wonders, as it appears that the sleeve is digging into the surface of the lower rod.

This truss rod design is fairly common, as they are used in Rickenbackers and a lot of Vintage Harmonys as well. In this version, the brazed-on sleeve is what I would consider a minor design flaw, as it does not allow the end of the top rod to pivot. Instead it will cause the lower threaded rod to bend downward as the adjustment nut is tightened.

The rod that Mel's Parts-rite has is more like the original Rickenbacker version, as it is made from a single bent rod that allows the top rod to pivot at both ends.

As Dubtrub mentioned, repairs to the rod will be easiest if you separate the two rods. This is one way that you could "fix" your rod, you could pre-stress the rods, and re-braze the sleeve to the upper rod at a slight downward angle. This would help to take some of the pressure off of where the sleeve contacts the lower rod.

Be sure to put a drop of oil on the threads and inside the sleeve before you re-install the rod assembly.

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Re: Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby drbassman » Tue Oct 14, 2008 11:31 am

Wow, thanks for all of the tips guys. Here are my thoughts.

Should I do anything since I do have good movement when I tighten the nut with the right tool? Once the rod was free of the constrictions of the truss rod pocket on a long handled nut driver, it moved easily.

Will the slight bend probably worsen over time? I could easily cut the rods apart, straighten the bend and have a welder friend rebraze them back together. Another dumb question: pre-stress the rods? How is that done?

One last question. Although I'm not an engineer, I'm more of a woodworker, I do sometimes (not typically) think like one. When I tried to tighten the rod the first time, it was recessed deep into the rod pocket. Should the sleeve, and nut on top of it, be above the channel in the neck for freer movement? When I tightened the nut the first time, I could see the bottom of the nut hitting the wood around the rod channel, making me think that was stopping my progress. Just a thought!

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Re: Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby Mr. Bill » Tue Oct 14, 2008 1:58 pm

drbassman wrote:Should I do anything since I do have good movement when I tighten the nut with the right tool? Once the rod was free of the constrictions of the truss rod pocket on a long handled nut driver, it moved easily.

I'd still clean up the scoring on the lower rod, as it will cause adjustment problems once you've got tension on the rods.

drbassman wrote:Will the slight bend probably worsen over time? I could easily cut the rods apart, straighten the bend and have a welder friend rebraze them back together. Another dumb question: pre-stress the rods? How is that done?

Yes, if the rod is really torqued it will probably continue to bend the threaded end downward, as there is no support below it.

Brazing is not like welding, as it does not rely on melting/fusing the metal rods together. It is more like soldering, using a different metal alloy to bond the metal parts together. I use a small propane torch, like a plumber would use and a brazing rod that is sold at any big home improvement store. I'm sure that your welder friend can help you here, but if you're handy, you probably can do it yourself.

By pre-stressing the rods, I mean to put a slight upward bend in the top rod, so that the ends will already be angled in the correct direction before any tension is applied to the nut.

drbassman wrote:When I tried to tighten the rod the first time, it was recessed deep into the rod pocket. Should the sleeve, and nut on top of it, be above the channel in the neck for freer movement? When I tightened the nut the first time, I could see the bottom of the nut hitting the wood around the rod channel, making me think that was stopping my progress.

The rod may not work this way, as it is designed to push the middle of the neck upwards against the pressure of the strings. Because the end of the threaded rod has been bent downward, it will cause the nut to rub against the back of the channel route. Straightening the rod end will help to move the adjustment nut away from the wood.

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Re: Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby drbassman » Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:38 am

OK, I see. Well, I'm always up for a learning experience, so brazing doesn't sound too daunting since I've successfully done home plumbing with a propane torch a lot over the years. I guess I could learn this as well! I'm going to try your suggestions folks. I'll post some pics as I go along. I've got 5 other projects in the shop, so it will get attention periodically. Thanks again, your input has been invaluable!

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Re: Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby MWaldorf » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:25 am

What are the dimensions of the factory Mosrite truss rod? In particular I'm curious about the width and height, as opposed to the length. What is the diameter of the lower rod and the upper square rod? What's the thread? 10-32? 10-24? Also, some pictures of the nut used would be great.

I ask this as I tried to install a stewmac truss rod (7/32" wide by 14/32" tall) in my parts-rite and it wouldn't fit. I know the current truss rod I have is 3/16" x 6/16" fits. Is the stock rod any bigger?
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Re: Truss rod pictures/repair?

Postby drbassman » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:16 pm

I'm out of town right now, but will answer your questions when I return on Monday.


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