Mosrite II pickup question

User avatar
rynaro
Top Producer
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:03 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Mosrite II pickup question

Postby rynaro » Mon Jan 26, 2015 1:32 am

Hey guys this may have already been answered but i can't find it and appologise in advance if it has been.

What is the characteristics and uniqeness of the mosrite II pickup that differs from the standard mosrite pickup we all know and love.

I question this in the quest for the johnny ramone tone of the first few albums before the mods of his blue mosrite.
And yes i know about marshall amps already this is well documented online.
Tym Sweeping Wing Jr #Z0094 (murph trem & mastery bridge)/ Tym vibratone #A0080 (jag trem/pickups)>Heaps of pedals>Vox AC15HW
http://www.facebook.com/tenderbones
https://tenderbones.bandcamp.com
http://ryanlhumphreys.bandcamp.com

User avatar
Greg_L
Top Producer
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:15 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Mosrite II pickup question

Postby Greg_L » Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:30 am

rynaro wrote: And yes i know about marshall amps already this is well documented online.


Since you know about the Marshalls already, make sure they are not overlooked on your quest for Johnny sound. Unless you've been in the same room with a wide open 100w Marshall Super Lead feeding a 4x12, or more cabs, you don't understand the impact that amp has. It's like a religious experience if loud rock and roll is your thing. They have no master volume and they are deafeningly loud as soon as you turn them on. I've been to CBGB many times. I can't even imagine how brutally loud it must have been in that tiny place once Johnny got his non-master volume Marshalls. It's a good thing by that point they drew a big crowd to absorb the sonic assault of those amps.

I'm sorry I don't have a specific answer for your pickup question, but I do have the Marshalls Johnny used, and they matter a lot. You won't get it done with a Fender combo or some modeling amp. You need the real thing.

Having said that...those amps are very responsive and sensitive to the pickup's output, and they are not high gain amps. They need to be cranked up, and even then the most you'll get out of those amps with an average single coil pickup is an AC/DC or Hendrix like crunch. But Johnny's sound is much more overdriven that that. Mostly it's the way he plays obviously, and it's partly due to equipment. I would suspect that his original Mosrite Venture II single coils were quite high output as far as single coils go. With the way he plays, they drove his amps pretty well. Almost like a moderate humbucker.

User avatar
zarfnober
Top Producer
Posts: 521
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:19 pm
Location: Bolingbrook, Ill
Contact:

Re: Mosrite II pickup question

Postby zarfnober » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:50 am

I'll go a step further on the above reply, speakers. The sound you're looking for needs 4 things:

The guitar and its pickups

Proper downstroke and a couple other techniques

The amp, and probably more importantly, Celestion Greenback speakers. They are a huge part of the sound. I've had guys come over and play through 3 or 4 different amps, from 5-50 watts. They all sound different. Plug them into a 4x12 with Greenbacks, preferably from the 70's, and you get a very distinct and similar tone. Overdrive the amp into those speakers and you'll get pretty close to what you're looking for.

And finally, it helps if you're Johnny. I've seen numerous bands try and play them, usually with good musicians, and they almost never get it right, or close. According to his book, when he had a full stack there, one was empty, and on big stages, most were there for show or backup. He was plugged into one 4x12. It was probably different in early days, there's photos of 2 -100 watt heads plugged into a full stack. I'd have to guess that he destroyed a few speakers.

I've never measured the pickups on my slab body, so I can't help you there, but get the cabinet with Greenbacks. There are more than a few 50-100 watt heads besides Marshalls with EL34 power tubes that will help if you can't afford a vintage Marshall, and plenty of the kits come pretty darn close if you're competent in basic electronics.

Downstrokes, and volume. Good luck!


Rocco
www.rockometeramp.com Vinatge spec American and British style cabs, custom cabs, recovers, regrills and restorations.

User avatar
Greg_L
Top Producer
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:15 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Mosrite II pickup question

Postby Greg_L » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:14 am

Yes, speakers play a huge role. Though it's hard to say what speakers Johnny actually used. Most likely they were standard 25w 75hz G12M Greenbacks. But by that time some Marshall cabs came with heavy magnets, "bass cones", and a 30w per speaker rating. Or he may have been using Pulsonic cones. This is all cork-sniffer minutia but there are sonic differences between all these speaker options. I don't suspect anyone cared enough to pop the back panel off of his cabs and look. Greenbacks are my own personal favorite for my own sound, and when I try to copy the Johnny sound. Johnny's midrange crunch and tight low end has all the telltale sounds of Greenbacks.

It's also possible that his Super Lead amps didn't have EL34s at all. They probably did, but it's plausible that they could have had KT66 or 6550 power tubes. Marshall was in flux in those days and mismatched parts, tubes, panels, head boxes, logos, etc was very common. Those 60s and 70s Super Leads ran a wide spectrum of electronic and visual inconsistency. I'm not 100% sure about the Super Leads, but the brand-new-at-the-time master volume amps shipped to the US were commonly set up for 6550s by the mid 70s. His later JCM 800s almost certainly had 6550s.

User avatar
zarfnober
Top Producer
Posts: 521
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:19 pm
Location: Bolingbrook, Ill
Contact:

Re: Mosrite II pickup question

Postby zarfnober » Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:55 pm

Yes on the Marshalls being shipped with 6550's in the 70's , but not all. They had a problem with newer EL34's failing from shipping problems. Most guys switched. Monte Melnick is on record stating he always had his amps serviced, using EL34's. His equipment changed some in the late 70's or early 80's, after some stuff was stolen, which I think happened more than once.

But the early sound, and it ain't cork sniffing, is Greenbacks. The 55hz speakers are for bass amps, and have more bottom end with guitars, but he didn't use them as far as I know. A friend who was pretty familiar to the inner circle, has investigated this geekiness we all seem to share , and it was 25 waters. Once he changed pickups, he was by then using JCM800's, totally different, but still great , sound. Listen to some of the bootleg live stuff from Europe, very noticeable, as they used rented equipment.

I've been in touch with his guitar tech lately, I'll pick his brain and report back.

Rocco
www.rockometeramp.com Vinatge spec American and British style cabs, custom cabs, recovers, regrills and restorations.

User avatar
Greg_L
Top Producer
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:15 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Mosrite II pickup question

Postby Greg_L » Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:19 pm

Please do, that'd be great.


It's most likely that he used 25w Greenbacks. I don't dispute that at all. The 55hz cones aren't just for "bass amps" though. Lots of guitarists used them. I think maybe Kossof and Hendrix were bass cone guys. And if he ever rented cabs, it's very possible that he got 55hz cones or maybe even G12-65s later on into the 70s. It's really hard to tell with Johnny because his sound is different on every album and every live recording. And of course his stuff was routinely stolen. It's always unmistakable Johnny, but there are big differences in the sound.

The pickup change happened around 1980/81, and he was still using Super Leads at that time. That US Festival vid shows him using the FS-1 and Super Leads if I remember correctly. I really like the "Pleasant Dreams" guitar sound....when you can hear it those bad mixes. The switch to JCM 800s happened around "Too Tough To Die".

User avatar
oipunkguy
Master Contributor
Posts: 2208
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2008 1:05 am
Location: Winchester, Virginia
Contact:

Re: Mosrite II pickup question

Postby oipunkguy » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:40 pm

yes johnny used plexis, but it was never clear if he used them mixed with JMPs. I believe that most likely in the beginning he use just plexis. if you listen to enough live recordings you can hear a stark difference in the ramones tone in the 80's when he switched over to jcm 800s. when I saw them live in the 90's he wasnt using 800s at all anymore and the primary amps he used was a jcm 900 SLX. he used 5 marshall heads and he still used one plexi in the mix. john would have used whatever cabinet that was available, so its possible that he could have used the 55hz blackbacks, but its probably impossible to know exact what cabs he used, the 25 and 30 greenbacks were the main speakers used in marshalls in the 70's and later they switched to 65 watter, and precursor to the gt1275 which comes standard in a full size marshall cab now.
Cheers,
Aaron
Facebook.com/aarons.guitars

"Politicians are like diapers; they need to be changed often and for the same reason."
— Mark Twain

User avatar
Greg_L
Top Producer
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:15 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Mosrite II pickup question

Postby Greg_L » Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:16 pm

oipunkguy wrote:yes johnny used plexis, but it was never clear if he used them mixed with JMPs. I believe that most likely in the beginning he use just plexis.

This is where slang terminology rears it's ugly head. Super Lead is the actual name of the amp he used. "Plexi" is just a catch-all term for the plexiglass panel Marshall Lead/Super Leads. The later "JMP" amps he used were also Super Leads - Super Lead meaning 100w non-master volume amp. Chances are he didn't use actual Plexis at all. His first batch of Marshalls were purchased long after Marshall stopped making Plexis. Most likely every amp he used until the JCM 800s were metal panel JMP Super Leads, not actual Plexis. Same amp, same circuits, same head boxes (at first), different faceplate materials.

Some Plexis are Super Leads
Not all Super Leads are Plexis
They all look identical until around 1978.

All you really need to look for are the guitar inputs. If you see a pic of Johnny plugged into an amp with 4 inputs, that's a Super Lead. They were all JMP Super Leads unless he actually used Plexis in the very early days. Some pics show the third polarity toggle, some show the plastic rocker switches. But as long as it has 4 inputs, it's a Super Lead. The master volume amps had only 2 inputs. It's possible he played a few JMP Master Volume (2203) amps before switching to the JCM 800s, which are easy to distinguish. The JMP Master Volume amps look exactly like the JMP Super Leads, except for the 2 guitar inputs instead of 4.

if you listen to enough live recordings you can hear a stark difference in the ramones tone in the 80's when he switched over to jcm 800s. when I saw them live in the 90's he wasnt using 800s at all anymore and the primary amps he used was a jcm 900 SLX. he used 5 marshall heads and he still used one plexi in the mix. john would have used whatever cabinet that was available, so its possible that he could have used the 55hz blackbacks, but its probably impossible to know exact what cabs he used, the 25 and 30 greenbacks were the main speakers used in marshalls in the 70's and later they switched to 65 watter, and precursor to the gt1275 which comes standard in a full size marshall cab now.


Most of Johnny's stage rig was backups and props. He ran cabs on the bass side of the stage for sound balance. He didn't daisy chain amps as far as I know. It's very unlikely he actually used five 100w heads at once. For one, that would be a gigantic mess of feedback, phase problems, and louder than 10 jumbo jets crashing into each other. Lol. That would be awesome though. He did have amp breakdowns a lot though so he'd always have backups. I never saw him use JCM 900s though. That's interesting. I saw them six times (once with Dee Dee) but it was later in their career and he always used JCM 800s every time I saw them.

User avatar
zarfnober
Top Producer
Posts: 521
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:19 pm
Location: Bolingbrook, Ill
Contact:

Re: Mosrite II pickup question

Postby zarfnober » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:38 pm

There are photos in the very early days where he ran 2 heads into a full stack. IIRC, the channels were also jumpered on each amp, checkerboard cabs and the blue guitar. But you can read his book, where he says 1-4x12 full, one empty. But there were always spares.
www.rockometeramp.com Vinatge spec American and British style cabs, custom cabs, recovers, regrills and restorations.

User avatar
Greg_L
Top Producer
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:15 am
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Mosrite II pickup question

Postby Greg_L » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:21 am

zarfnober wrote:There are photos in the very early days where he ran 2 heads into a full stack. IIRC, the channels were also jumpered on each amp, checkerboard cabs and the blue guitar. But you can read his book, where he says 1-4x12 full, one empty. But there were always spares.

I haven't seen any pics of Johnny jumping channels, but those old Super Leads could be daisy chained with a little creativity (Hendrix did it), we know he used a A/B splitter as an on/off switch, and he could have ran two heads into two cabs as a stack. But that would be unbelievably loud for just about any venue they would have played in those early days and two heads can't go into one cab. It would blow that cab to pieces, or the amp's transformers would nuke themselves right away from the impedance mismatch. I don't claim to know what Johnny actually did, but I know those amps and cabs intimately. I have them and have been using them for years. So I'm just thinking out loud here. The only way he was using more than one head at a time was if he was using more cabs than one, and like you mentioned he said in his book that he quickly switched to only using one cab. But when I saw them later on in big venues, he definitely had guitar sound coming from Dee Dee's side of the stage, so at that point he was running his main amp feeding multiple cabs, or a second amp sent to the bass side.

My own personal assumption from reading his book, seeing bunches of pics, knowing those amps very well, and using those amps myself in similarly sized venues, is that in those early early days he ran one amp and one cab for sheer noise consideration, and the other amps and cabs were stage props and/or backups. The second/third amps that appear to be on and connected could be running idle ready to go as a backup, or his guitar could have been split to feed more than one head feeding multiple cabs. Some of those Super Leads from that era could power four cabs at once, but you couldn't run more than one amp into a single cab. I tend to believe that he ran his guitar into a splitter for his on/off switch, which we know he did, then that went to both amps with one being on standby, or it went to another splitter side-stage in case of an amp breakdown, where Mickey could switch amps on the fly.

Another assumption I have is that Johnny is rolling his eyes at us from heaven as we try to dissect his stage rigs. Sorry Johnny, this stuff fascinates me and we just love you dude! :lol:


Return to “Mosrite & Clone, Projects, Parts & Accessories Q&A”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 115 guests