Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

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Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby HardlyRamone » Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:13 pm

Hello all,

I’ve not posted on these forums for some time, but I’m getting back into some guitar-related projects whilst being stuck at home more often again.

I’m wondering, from a very uneducated perspective, how difficult/realistic it would be to commission the building of a very accurate Mosrite Ventures II slab body “clone”. I assume that’s no small task, but seeing as the real guitars are elusive $7k-$10k rarities, I’m wondering if a custom made replica is actually a less ridiculous goal (even if it’s still ridiculous). Despite my own experience with modifying all my own guitars, I do not possess the craftsmanship to build one from scratch, so I’d have to find someone who does.

I should clarify that this isn’t just to get the overall look and sound of the guitar, as the Hallmark II model has been tempting me with that alone for years. And I probably will get one anyway, sooner or later. But no, I want something with an accurate neck and accurate string spacing as compared to the real vintage examples, no compromises. Slim profile, speed frets, everything. That true Ventures II feel, for better or worse, is what I want under my fingers when I put down my other guitars to pick this one up. The fact that none of the notable replicas offer the accurate neck (to my knowledge) leaves me wondering if it’s because of manufacturing issues, or if it’s to avoid selling something with the playability differences of such a weird neck… or both.

But beyond just the neck, the main checkpoints are, as far as I can tell;
- Copying the basswood body. I assume that’s just a matter of appropriate spec diagrams/plans?
- Accurate pickups. I know these are not impossible to obtain or have made.
- Appropriate hardware. I don’t know if this is a big problem, but notably, I don’t really need a vibrato. I’m also OK with small visual inaccuracies overall (provided the hardware is functionally adequate).
- Paint color. I’d go for a pleasing green that the real Ventures II slab wasn’t offered in, to make this one stand out as a unique and unmistakable piece. I love to have a significant personalized aspect to all my guitars, but I couldn’t see myself doing that with a vintage example.

So what hurdles am I looking at here? I’m just looking for any knowledge anybody has, or resources. The way I see it, if this isn’t a realistic project, I’m just going to have to find a real one and let it be more of a collector’s item than I actually want.

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Re: Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby GattonFan » Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:51 pm

You might try to contact Ed Elliot, who still builds Mosrite-style guitars. Don’t know if he ever checks in here, but you can Google him for contact info.
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Re: Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby HardlyRamone » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:11 pm

GattonFan wrote:You might try to contact Ed Elliot, who still builds Mosrite-style guitars. Don’t know if he ever checks in here, but you can Google him for contact info.
Dennis

Thank you! It's good to know of people that can build these kinds of guitars.

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Re: Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby 101Volts » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:23 am

Here's what I know about the Slab Body model.

I once asked for neck measurements of a Slab model. Someone on Facebook replied, and sadly, I forgot the individual's name off the top of my head. As it turns out, the neck to a Slab Body model is nearly identical to the neck of my Ventures II B670 (German Carved model.) I think I saved the measurements of the slab model that were given to me, but they're not on the computer I'm using now.

One thing to note is that between a Slab model and a Ventures II (Carved) or MK V model is, outside of the headstock being different, the neck size is nearly exactly the same. I also have exact measurements of my B670, but I'll have to post them in a later reply. I will say that my Mosrite's neck thickness does not taper up in size until fret 13 or so, and it is also the same on a Slab model. The neck from about fret 1 - 13 is about 0.860 thick.

Most Mosrites are 24.5" scale length (yes, 24.5,) so that's a size that needs mapped out for accurate string tension. StewMac.com has a scale length calculation tool.

The Ventures II Slab Body model is just the same shape and size as a Ventures model, but with the neck farther out; the neck pocket needs to be extended out in a rectangular shape. Unlike the more expensive Ventures model, the Slab's neck does not have the neck tongue under a pickup. It just bolts on like a Telecaster, or a Mosrite MK V. Because the Slab's neck pocket is extended out so far and maybe because it's made of Basswood, originals actually had some neck pocket cracking problems. That's nothing some Titebond can't fix, if you get that problem. I fixed a broken headstock that way, on an ES 335 copy.

A Slab's Pickups are simple. They're just two bar magnets (though I don't know which Alnico kind would be appropriate) taped on to a rectangle of wood, taped up, and they have AWG 43 wrapped around them. I don't know the dimensions of the magnets and wood, though. The pickups are 8k for the bridge, 7k for the neck (according to what I read.) If you want 100% original style pickups (that is, with original type magnets,) you'll have to ask Bob Shade to make you a set; he's the only one I can think of who has stock of the original Mosrite break away magnets, which were discontinued ages ago.

If you ask me, an original style Mosrite Bridge is also a significant source of the tone that Mosrites have, because of the skinnier bridge posts and construction of the bridge. Johnny Ramone's White Guitar has its original bridge, which is Mosrite's Non Roller variety. I don't know of any source where you can get these made, but Bob Shade probably still has stock of them.

- Austin
1966 Ventures II (German Carved, B670.)
1970s "Not a Blues Bender" Bodies: 2.
1976 Brass Rail Deluxe #10.
2013 Fender Pawn Shop Bass VI.

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Re: Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby HardlyRamone » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:17 pm

101Volts wrote:Here's what I know about the Slab Body model.

I once asked for neck measurements of a Slab model. Someone on Facebook replied, and sadly, I forgot the individual's name off the top of my head. As it turns out, the neck to a Slab Body model is nearly identical to the neck of my Ventures II B670 (German Carved model.) I think I saved the measurements of the slab model that were given to me, but they're not on the computer I'm using now.

One thing to note is that between a Slab model and a Ventures II (Carved) or MK V model is, outside of the headstock being different, the neck size is nearly exactly the same. I also have exact measurements of my B670, but I'll have to post them in a later reply. I will say that my Mosrite's neck thickness does not taper up in size until fret 13 or so, and it is also the same on a Slab model. The neck from about fret 1 - 13 is about 0.860 thick.

Most Mosrites are 24.5" scale length (yes, 24.5,) so that's a size that needs mapped out for accurate string tension. StewMac.com has a scale length calculation tool.

The Ventures II Slab Body model is just the same shape and size as a Ventures model, but with the neck farther out; the neck pocket needs to be extended out in a rectangular shape. Unlike the more expensive Ventures model, the Slab's neck does not have the neck tongue under a pickup. It just bolts on like a Telecaster, or a Mosrite MK V. Because the Slab's neck pocket is extended out so far and maybe because it's made of Basswood, originals actually had some neck pocket cracking problems. That's nothing some Titebond can't fix, if you get that problem. I fixed a broken headstock that way, on an ES 335 copy.

A Slab's Pickups are simple. They're just two bar magnets (though I don't know which Alnico kind would be appropriate) taped on to a rectangle of wood, taped up, and they have AWG 43 wrapped around them. I don't know the dimensions of the magnets and wood, though. The pickups are 8k for the bridge, 7k for the neck (according to what I read.) If you want 100% original style pickups (that is, with original type magnets,) you'll have to ask Bob Shade to make you a set; he's the only one I can think of who has stock of the original Mosrite break away magnets, which were discontinued ages ago.

If you ask me, an original style Mosrite Bridge is also a significant source of the tone that Mosrites have, because of the skinnier bridge posts and construction of the bridge. Johnny Ramone's White Guitar has its original bridge, which is Mosrite's Non Roller variety. I don't know of any source where you can get these made, but Bob Shade probably still has stock of them.

- Austin


Thank you for all of that! Do you know any other measurements for the Ventures II style neck? Like width & nut string spacing?

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Re: Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby 101Volts » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:17 pm

HardlyRamone wrote:Thank you for all of that! Do you know any other measurements for the Ventures II style neck? Like width & nut string spacing?


First, I have to say that I may have been wrong about which AWG Wire Mosrite used. They seem to have actually used AWG 44, which StewMac doesn't carry. You can find it for sale on eBay, though, as "AWG 44 Magnet Wire."

As far as the neck width, it depends on what you're comfortable with. My Ventures II has a neck that's about 1.560 wide at the zero fret and 2.050 at the very end of the neck. Neck width doesn't seem to matter too much, though, so you could go for 1.600" wide at the zero fret if you'd like.

If you go with the same neck width: the string spacing at the zero fret, from center of one string to the center of another string, is 0.260. Also, the space in between the E strings and the edges of the fretboard should have about 0.115 of space between them and the edge of the fretboard. I can't give exact measurements for in between the E strings and edges of the fretboard, though; on mine, the Low E is too close to the edge, and the High E too far away. I did give a rough estimate for how they should be, though.

If you want to build a bridge too, I have some measurements from my 76 Brass Rail Bridge that I have on my 66 Ventures II. The bridge is simple to build; take a sheet of brass that's 0.060 thick, and fold it at a 90 degree angle with 0.820 between the walls, which is where the saddles will go. The bridge "walls" go about 0.260 high (0.320 if you measure from the bottom of a bridge to the top, but the metal's 0.060 thick, so it's 0.260.) The screw holes for the bridge posts (not the saddles) are about 0.212. A Mosrite-spec bridge post is smaller than a Tune O Matic post, and it's not a readily available part unless you buy them from Bob Shade. The "lip" of the bridge post is 0.315, and the screwhead part protrudes through the bridge. The bridge is supposed to rock on the posts slightly.

The saddles are round brass rod, roughly 0.315 thick. It's an odd size, and you might need to turn down a larger brass rod to get this size. The saddles should be about 0.520 - 0.525 tall, or less depending on the string, if you want to make it easy to palm mute. The string spacing from the middle of one string to the middle of another is about 0.377. Mind you, the bridge I'm measuring isn't stock - I'm measuring the bridge from my 76 Brass Rail. I substituted it for the one on my Ventures II, though I don't mean to keep it there forever.

A screw for a Mosrite Bridge Saddle (not the bridge post) could be roughly 1.125 long (counting the head,) with a head diameter of 0.215 and an outer thread diameter of 0.132. I think the length is slightly too long, but it doesn't really matter much. Cap it off with an acorn nut, and if you need to take up space, use some washers. Only use Stainless screws, or you might be in trouble; the stock screws I had on my 66 weren't very good. I lost a saddle because of that.

I don't know how clear I made that. Some was written earlier, but I'm submitting this at about 2:15 AM.

- Austin
1966 Ventures II (German Carved, B670.)
1970s "Not a Blues Bender" Bodies: 2.
1976 Brass Rail Deluxe #10.
2013 Fender Pawn Shop Bass VI.

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Re: Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby HardlyRamone » Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:05 am

101Volts wrote:
HardlyRamone wrote:Thank you for all of that! Do you know any other measurements for the Ventures II style neck? Like width & nut string spacing?


First, I have to say that I may have been wrong about which AWG Wire Mosrite used. They seem to have actually used AWG 44, which StewMac doesn't carry. You can find it for sale on eBay, though, as "AWG 44 Magnet Wire."

As far as the neck width, it depends on what you're comfortable with. My Ventures II has a neck that's about 1.560 wide at the zero fret and 2.050 at the very end of the neck. Neck width doesn't seem to matter too much, though, so you could go for 1.600" wide at the zero fret if you'd like.

If you go with the same neck width: the string spacing at the zero fret, from center of one string to the center of another string, is 0.260. Also, the space in between the E strings and the edges of the fretboard should have about 0.115 of space between them and the edge of the fretboard. I can't give exact measurements for in between the E strings and edges of the fretboard, though; on mine, the Low E is too close to the edge, and the High E too far away. I did give a rough estimate for how they should be, though.

If you want to build a bridge too, I have some measurements from my 76 Brass Rail Bridge that I have on my 66 Ventures II. The bridge is simple to build; take a sheet of brass that's 0.060 thick, and fold it at a 90 degree angle with 0.820 between the walls, which is where the saddles will go. The bridge "walls" go about 0.260 high (0.320 if you measure from the bottom of a bridge to the top, but the metal's 0.060 thick, so it's 0.260.) The screw holes for the bridge posts (not the saddles) are about 0.212. A Mosrite-spec bridge post is smaller than a Tune O Matic post, and it's not a readily available part unless you buy them from Bob Shade. The "lip" of the bridge post is 0.315, and the screwhead part protrudes through the bridge. The bridge is supposed to rock on the posts slightly.

The saddles are round brass rod, roughly 0.315 thick. It's an odd size, and you might need to turn down a larger brass rod to get this size. The saddles should be about 0.520 - 0.525 tall, or less depending on the string, if you want to make it easy to palm mute. The string spacing from the middle of one string to the middle of another is about 0.377. Mind you, the bridge I'm measuring isn't stock - I'm measuring the bridge from my 76 Brass Rail. I substituted it for the one on my Ventures II, though I don't mean to keep it there forever.

A screw for a Mosrite Bridge Saddle (not the bridge post) could be roughly 1.125 long (counting the head,) with a head diameter of 0.215 and an outer thread diameter of 0.132. I think the length is slightly too long, but it doesn't really matter much. Cap it off with an acorn nut, and if you need to take up space, use some washers. Only use Stainless screws, or you might be in trouble; the stock screws I had on my 66 weren't very good. I lost a saddle because of that.

I don't know how clear I made that. Some was written earlier, but I'm submitting this at about 2:15 AM.

- Austin


That's very helpful, wow! I'm saving all of that. One question though, how can the E to E (center to center) string spacing be 0.260? That's about 6mm, which doesn't sound right. Was that supposed to be 1.260mm? That would be 32mm which sounds very feasible (and quite narrow!).

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Re: Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby 101Volts » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:30 am

HardlyRamone wrote:That's very helpful, wow! I'm saving all of that. One question though, how can the E to E (center to center) string spacing be 0.260? That's about 6mm, which doesn't sound right. Was that supposed to be 1.260mm? That would be 32mm which sounds very feasible (and quite narrow!).


The measurements are accurate. 0.260 is from the center of one string to the next. I'm used to it by now, even when playing strange chords. The problem is when I try finger-picking; it's not an issue to fret it, but on the bridge end, spacing's not very wide.

From the center of the Low E to the center of the High E, there is indeed about 1.260. The outer measurements of the E strings is a rough 1.285 - 1.300. (it's 1.297 on mine now, but I have a 0.056 on the bottom, and a 0.009 on the top.)

If this is too thin for you, it's OK to make the neck wider, to a width more like Fender specs. Mosrite made their necks wider in the 1970s (though I'm not sure if it was for all models,) but they didn't make the neck depth any deeper. I think 1970s models are a bit too wide for me, though; 1.730 at the zero fret for a Ventures type model? The neck on my Brass Rail is 1.776 at the zero fret, but I think it's an exception.

Also, if you want the most accurate fretwire possible (and it can get hard to fret barre chords after fret 12 if you don't have thin fretwire,) Mosrite used a discontinued size; it was 0.070 wide. Short of a custom order, you can't get a modern equivalent anywhere that I'm aware of. There are some close substitutes, though:

Dunlop 6250 - 0.075 Wide, 0.030 Tall.
Dunlop 6270 - 0.075 Wide, 0.040 Tall.

However, it all depends on what you're using the guitar for. If you're not going to barre chords up above the 12th fret, this isn't as much of a problem with the scale length. Honestly though, I'd start putting even thinner mandolin wire past the 12th fret if I was frequently playing barre chords that high.

As for fretwire height, Mosrite sanded the fretwire down quite a bit at the factory, so it would be easy to slide up and down the neck:

0.022 Tall on the Low E side
0.015 Tall on the High E side (it tapers.)

At the edges of the fretboard, the fretwire goes down to nearly nothing. These fretwire measurements are off my 66 Ventures II "Carved" model B670, so it doesn't have neck binding. Ventures I models may have differed, because they do have neck binding.

You don't need to sand the fretwire down as far as Mosrite did, if you don't want to. I just left it on mine because I had no reason to refret it (though the zero fret's starting to look pretty worn, I don't have a problem with it yet.) I can bend strings easily enough if I'm using 9s or 10s. If you start using 11s or thicker, it starts to become a problem with the thin strings.

Finally, if you weren't aware of this: whether or not you have a Vibrato Tailpiece on a Guitar, I suggest that for the unwound strings, you always solder the string wraps near the ball end. It lengthens string life a lot. I've been doing it for all of my unwound strings, and though the strings still break at a bridge or by the tuner, they no longer unwind themselves.

- Austin
1966 Ventures II (German Carved, B670.)
1970s "Not a Blues Bender" Bodies: 2.
1976 Brass Rail Deluxe #10.
2013 Fender Pawn Shop Bass VI.

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Re: Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby HardlyRamone » Sun Apr 04, 2021 3:24 pm

101Volts wrote:
HardlyRamone wrote:That's very helpful, wow! I'm saving all of that. One question though, how can the E to E (center to center) string spacing be 0.260? That's about 6mm, which doesn't sound right. Was that supposed to be 1.260mm? That would be 32mm which sounds very feasible (and quite narrow!).


The measurements are accurate. 0.260 is from the center of one string to the next. I'm used to it by now, even when playing strange chords. The problem is when I try finger-picking; it's not an issue to fret it, but on the bridge end, spacing's not very wide.

From the center of the Low E to the center of the High E, there is indeed about 1.260. The outer measurements of the E strings is a rough 1.285 - 1.300. (it's 1.297 on mine now, but I have a 0.056 on the bottom, and a 0.009 on the top.)

If this is too thin for you, it's OK to make the neck wider, to a width more like Fender specs. Mosrite made their necks wider in the 1970s (though I'm not sure if it was for all models,) but they didn't make the neck depth any deeper. I think 1970s models are a bit too wide for me, though; 1.730 at the zero fret for a Ventures type model? The neck on my Brass Rail is 1.776 at the zero fret, but I think it's an exception.

Also, if you want the most accurate fretwire possible (and it can get hard to fret barre chords after fret 12 if you don't have thin fretwire,) Mosrite used a discontinued size; it was 0.070 wide. Short of a custom order, you can't get a modern equivalent anywhere that I'm aware of. There are some close substitutes, though:

Dunlop 6250 - 0.075 Wide, 0.030 Tall.
Dunlop 6270 - 0.075 Wide, 0.040 Tall.

However, it all depends on what you're using the guitar for. If you're not going to barre chords up above the 12th fret, this isn't as much of a problem with the scale length. Honestly though, I'd start putting even thinner mandolin wire past the 12th fret if I was frequently playing barre chords that high.

As for fretwire height, Mosrite sanded the fretwire down quite a bit at the factory, so it would be easy to slide up and down the neck:

0.022 Tall on the Low E side
0.015 Tall on the High E side (it tapers.)

At the edges of the fretboard, the fretwire goes down to nearly nothing. These fretwire measurements are off my 66 Ventures II "Carved" model B670, so it doesn't have neck binding. Ventures I models may have differed, because they do have neck binding.

You don't need to sand the fretwire down as far as Mosrite did, if you don't want to. I just left it on mine because I had no reason to refret it (though the zero fret's starting to look pretty worn, I don't have a problem with it yet.) I can bend strings easily enough if I'm using 9s or 10s. If you start using 11s or thicker, it starts to become a problem with the thin strings.

Finally, if you weren't aware of this: whether or not you have a Vibrato Tailpiece on a Guitar, I suggest that for the unwound strings, you always solder the string wraps near the ball end. It lengthens string life a lot. I've been doing it for all of my unwound strings, and though the strings still break at a bridge or by the tuner, they no longer unwind themselves.

- Austin


This is all very useful information, thanks a ton. Hopefully I can utilize all of this. I didn't realize the 0.260 was referring to individual string to string spacing. That sounds like it's about 33mm then from E to E... isn't that the same as the Hallmark II/Johnny Ramone Signature Model? I thought those had wider string spacing than vintage examples, but I've only ever heard one source say the Hallmarks have 33mm (1.300") E to E spacing at the nut.

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Re: Building a Mosrite Ventures II Slab Body?

Postby Greg_L » Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:55 am

101Volts wrote:
Finally, if you weren't aware of this: whether or not you have a Vibrato Tailpiece on a Guitar, I suggest that for the unwound strings, you always solder the string wraps near the ball end. It lengthens string life a lot. I've been doing it for all of my unwound strings, and though the strings still break at a bridge or by the tuner, they no longer unwind themselves.

- Austin


THIS! ^^^^^^^^

I have two Mosrites and a Hallmark 60 Custom. They will all break the unwound strings (usually for me it's the little E) inside the vibrato around the ball end. A few years ago I started tinning the ball end winding on my unwound strings with solder before putting them on and it hasn't happened since.

It's a little extra work, but it's better than broken strings.


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