1960's Mosrite Bantar?

[brrobert]

I should clarify, just in case I gave the wrong impression; I didn't mean that I have a Dobro - I don't. I'm not sure whether or not Mosrite Dobros have a Volute. When I said my 1966 Mosrite, I was referring to the one mentioned in my signature; a 1966 Ventures II of the second version under that name, which was shortly later re-named the Ventures Mark V.

That is a cool guitar! I had a beat Mark V years ago. I loved it. I'm envious.

[101Volts]

I had a Mobro years ago... like in the 90's. I don't remember much about it-- including whether there was a volute. I can't think of a Dobro with a volute, but I'm not really a dobro player. I sound bad enough with frets; playing with a slide makes me seasick. And sustain only prolongs my mistakes...

The aesthetics of the Bantar neck doesn't really look like Mobro necks that I've found online. The similarities are more with the Mosrite electric guitar necks. I can say that this Bantar neck feels like the necks from other Mosrite electric guitars that I've owned, and shares many similarities in construction. Was it a collaboration between the Mosrite luthiers and the Dopyera brothers? We just know that it was made in a time and place where they were co-existing. I read that the first Mobros were constructed in Gardena using many of the Dopyera parts on hand. I think the used to call these kind of things "floorsweep" guitars in the Gibson Kalamazoo factory.

I'm not very familiar with the Mobros either, but I have seen photos of one. And for the record of anyone else reading, yes, there's at least one 1970s version of a Mosrite Dobro that says "Mobro" on the headstock.

I'm not sure what to say about this Bantar, since it's such a rarity. You might ask Deke Dickerson, Eugene Moles, or Bob Shade about it. Maybe Ed Elliott might know something too, but he doesn't show up at the Mosrite pages on Facebook very often.

I think the term "floor-sweep" is fairly common, and I've used it too. There are more than a few weird Kays from the later 60s that I've seen with a mish-mash of parts that don't otherwise "belong" on individual examples of various instruments.

The reference I found to the headstock and a Mandolin scroll.... I think the design is meant to evoke the scroll in the upper bout of mandolin body, not the headstock. It is more abstract, I suppose. It was the late 60's after all!

There were some mandos with scroll headstocks, though. Here is one from a modern maker, but the older makers did that, too:

https://hirschguitars.com/models/mandol ... l-peghead/

This old Regal kind of looks like the Bantar headstock. The owner is saying it is a smurf headstock:

https://www.tdpri.com/threads/regal-rev ... s.1141527/

Come to think of it, Bill Gruggett (who worked with Mosrite now and then) did have a habit of making Scroll Headstocks on numerous Stradette models. I don't have a photo of one of his handy to link, but Hallmark Guitars later made Stradettes. This one should do:

I should clarify, just in case I gave the wrong impression; I didn't mean that I have a Dobro - I don't. I'm not sure whether or not Mosrite Dobros have a Volute. When I said my 1966 Mosrite, I was referring to the one mentioned in my signature; a 1966 Ventures II of the second version under that name, which was shortly later re-named the Ventures Mark V.

That is a cool guitar! I had a beat Mark V years ago. I loved it. I'm envious.

Mine's beat, too, and it's mostly not original. The original finish is missing and these parts are not original: tuners, electronics, pickguard, pickups, bridge. I did replace them with parts from Ed Elliott (except the bridge - I swiped that off my 1976 Mosrite Brass Rail, and I stuck a Hallmark Bridge on the Brass Rail.)

- Austin

[brrobert]

That's a great idea about asking Bob Shade. I don't have the info for the other guys.

To me, the thing that makes it the most plausible (aside from the stuff I found online), is that, other than some work for National in the 1920's, the Dopyera brothers weren't making banjos so they had no template when they decided to make them in 1967-68.

When you add that to this being the time they are doing deals with Mosrite, Mosrite luthiers are in their old plant and working with their old parts in assembling Mobros and, when the Dopyeras come up with a neck for their banjos it is nothing like the necks they've used on their other instruments and looks/feels an awful lot like a Mosrite neck, it creates a pretty good case.

[101Volts]

That's a great idea about asking Bob Shade. I don't have the info for the other guys.

To me, the thing that makes it the most plausible (aside from the stuff I found online), is that, other than some work for National in the 1920's, the Dopyera brothers weren't making banjos so they had no template when they decided to make them in 1967-68.

When you add that to this being the time they are doing deals with Mosrite, Mosrite luthiers are in their old plant and working with their old parts in assembling Mobros and, when the Dopyeras come up with a neck for their banjos it is nothing like the necks they've used on their other instruments and looks/feels an awful lot like a Mosrite neck, it creates a pretty good case.

Deke Dickerson shows up in Mosrite Facebook Pages often enough, Ed Elliott occasionally, and I don't think Eugene Moles posts outside his own Facebook account much. Though I do know Deke and Ed have accounts here at the forum, many people haven't shown up here frequently for quite some time, between spam running the forum down and Facebook taking over a lot of attention from forums.

Could be. I wouldn't be too surprised if Mosrite did actually make some more Banjo shaped Banjo Instruments instead of the other one I referred to on Page 1, but if they did, I've never seen any except for that Dobro type "Dobro Resonator Banjo."

Considering the whole Bakersfield Lutherie was more than just Mosrite, but it was also Joe Hall (Hallmark) and Bill Gruggett and (probably) Standel and a few others I forgot, there's probably some other history that I'm missing in here. I did recently get the "Bakersfield Guitars" book by Willie G. Moseley, but I've not read the entire book through to the end - just most of the way.

I still have to even start a draft for any of the Mosrite Dobro models in some Serial Number Lists, too. And there's a tremendous number of Dobros in the list, if I'm remembering right. If I should start it, maybe I'd have more to say about the Bantar.

- Austin

[brrobert]

I ended up hearing from Deke Dickerson on this-- how cool is that! I directed him to this thread. Here is his response:

Hey Bob—

Thanks for writing! This is definitely an odd duck! And yes, that’s a Mosrite-made neck.

I looked at the comments on the Mosrite Forum and the one by brrobert is the one I would agree with—the Dopyeras had a friendly relationship with Semie Moseley and I believe that they still made stuff like this one a custom basis either in the corner of the Gardena factory or utilizing spare parts they got from Mosrite.

I just got all the original Mosrite paperwork from Semie Moseley’s niece (it has been stored in a barn in rural Texas for years), and it’s interesting to see how much they thought the acquisition of Dobro was going to be this huge thing for Mosrite. It didn’t turn out to be so, but it is an interesting side story in the history of Mosrite. And that banter is super cool and crazy!

On another note, I learned quite a bit about the Dopyera history after acquiring R.C. Allen’s shop hoard following his death. I think it was John Dopyera who had a small shop in El Monte, California. R.C. wound up with many of his things. There were weird one-off custom things everywhere, I think that’s just what the Dopyeras did, especially during this era. They knew they had this name and they knew they had invented something influential back in the 1920s and 1930s, but the demand was so spotty and infrequent in the 1960s and 1970s that they mostly assembled weird one-off instruments on custom order.

I hope that this helps a little bit, but also, that guy brrobert on the Mosrite Forum had it right all along.

Deke

Just so cool of him to respond to an email like that. Can't wait to read his Mosrite book!

[101Volts]

I ended up hearing from Deke Dickerson on this-- how cool is that! I directed him to this thread. Here is his response:

Hey Bob—

Thanks for writing! This is definitely an odd duck! And yes, that’s a Mosrite-made neck.

I looked at the comments on the Mosrite Forum and the one by brrobert is the one I would agree with—the Dopyeras had a friendly relationship with Semie Moseley and I believe that they still made stuff like this one a custom basis either in the corner of the Gardena factory or utilizing spare parts they got from Mosrite.

I just got all the original Mosrite paperwork from Semie Moseley’s niece (it has been stored in a barn in rural Texas for years), and it’s interesting to see how much they thought the acquisition of Dobro was going to be this huge thing for Mosrite. It didn’t turn out to be so, but it is an interesting side story in the history of Mosrite. And that banter is super cool and crazy!

On another note, I learned quite a bit about the Dopyera history after acquiring R.C. Allen’s shop hoard following his death. I think it was John Dopyera who had a small shop in El Monte, California. R.C. wound up with many of his things. There were weird one-off custom things everywhere, I think that’s just what the Dopyeras did, especially during this era. They knew they had this name and they knew they had invented something influential back in the 1920s and 1930s, but the demand was so spotty and infrequent in the 1960s and 1970s that they mostly assembled weird one-off instruments on custom order.

I hope that this helps a little bit, but also, that guy brrobert on the Mosrite Forum had it right all along.

Deke

Just so cool of him to respond to an email like that. Can't wait to read his Mosrite book!

Nice hearing it.

Also, Deke does have an account here.

- Austin