Fuzzrite in amps...

Bob Shade
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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby Bob Shade » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:33 pm

My BG 1000 is down at the moment. Once it is back up, I will make a demo of both fuzz versions, unless someone else wants the job that has both amps.

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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby ElT » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:06 pm

Sounds great....

the site admin (Mel) asked if there was a schematic for the 400 about a year and a half ago:
http://mosriteforum.com/forum/viewtopic ... tic#p38294

still nothing turned up?

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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby Nokie » Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:06 am

Bob Shade wrote:Say, that was a really nice amp/vs. pedal Fuzzrite demo.

I have several Mosrite amps and two have the built in Fuzzrite. One is the BG 1000 and one is the 400 designed by Sanner. I like the sound of the Fuzzrite in the amps better myself. I sold my pedal a while back because I felt it did not have the depth that the amp Fuzzrite's had. The amps are rare and I think they have a good sound. Some guys don't take them too seriously, and I can't exactly say they would replace a Fender, nor are they road worthy, but they do sound good as you can tell in this demo and are a great rec room or recording amp for guys into this style of music. They were a very expensive amp at the time. I wish they put a Fuzzrite in the model 200 that I have. That little combo amp sounds fantastic! No fuzz though. I have a Mosrite experimental head too that has no Fuzzrite. Those poor fuzzless amplifiers!


Thanks Bob. I have to agree, my preference is for the fuzzrite as heard in the BG-1000. Ultimately, though, that fuzzrite sound is such a one-trick-pony. I can't remember when I used it more than one song in a set. Then again, if someone is playing with a garage band ala the Seeds or Music Machine, I can see it getting more use. I would love to see a demo of that model 400. -Marty

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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby ElT » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:55 am

All this Fuzzrite talk always brings back memories of the first one I built years ago, which always makes me laugh.

I built it into a wooden cigar box on a wooden board with old-fashioned eyelets and over-modded it.

...put a 3-way rotary switch on the cap from the fuzz side to go one step higher and one step lower than the stock cap. I used two different gates that I came up with by trial and error (I used to do a lot of circuit bending) and most importantly subbed a pot for the 22K to ground (buzz). That'll let you get way thinner & buzzier & trashier. Combine that with the gate and you have a thin bumblebee fuzz.

here, have a laugh...

Image

Image

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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby Brinkman » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:53 pm

Mr. Bill wrote:The values of the caps both input and output, will change the tone and overall feel of this circuit. If the input caps are too small there will not be enough signal to drive the transistors, but if they are too big they will allow for too much drive and the sound will get muddy and too thick.

Mr. Bill, I PM'ed you about the Red Rhodes/Nokie Edwards fuzz awhile back and thought I'd share on this thread what I'd recently noticed while reading my copy of Walk, Don't Run - The Story of The Ventures (2nd Ed.):

Del Halterman, on pg. 163 wrote:Although Ed Sanner is credited with designing this device [the Mosrite FUZZrite], Nokie [Edwards] has suspicions about it's internal circuitry; "The transistor fuzz box I had been using for years was designed by Red Rhodes. We had it built into our prototype and the Award amps, and I believe that Mosrite also used Red's design."
(emphasis mine)

Relevant to this is a quote from Ed Sanner from page 134 of this same book:
"We had planned to build amplifiers in 1966, but it took us some time before we could start production. The Ventures couldn't wait for us and started looking elsewhere... As it worked out, we got our first amplifiers into production shortly after they did. Around that time, I had come up with a fuzz-tone pedal for Leo LeBlanc, a friend of mine who played steel guitar. Semie said we should sell it so we started production of the Fuzzrite."
(emphasis again mine) [Note: Leo Leblanc also had a few records released under the Mosrite Records imprint.]

What I find most interesting is that in the first quote Nokie makes it pretty certain that the fuzz circuit in the Award amps was adapted from the fuzz box Red Rhodes built for Nokie in 1962. The only picture I can find of this unit (if it isn't actually some type of powered line driver or DI transformer) is here, plugged into the output jack of Nokie's Mosrite Combo:

Image

When you try and square Nokie's quote with Ed's quote and the schematics as posted earlier in the thread, one can safely arrive at a few conclusions:

1) Despite Nokie's conjecture, the Fuzzrite circuit and the Red Rhodes circuit are not similar. So Ed did not copy Red's circuit, as the respective schematics more or less bear out.

2) The fuzz circuit in the Award amps, within reason, can be considered a schematic for the Red Rhodes fuzz box as made for Nokie in 1962.

3) The fuzz circuit in the Award amplifiers should not be considered an iteration of the Fuzzrite circuit.

Beyond that, I still am curious about the fuzz circuit in the Award amps and how representative it is of the Red Rhodes fuzz unit, not only as used by Nokie, but also by Billy Strange on the Ann Margret single a year prior. Specifically, if the unit was plugged directly into the guitar's output jack would it actually have used input capacitors? Also, the Award circuit uses silicon NPN transistors running off a 35V power supply; what sort of transistors would have been used in the same circuit four years prior, operating off of 9V? My best guess is Germanium NPN, but which ones?

Anyhow, that's about all I got.

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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby Nokie » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:49 pm

Brinkman wrote:
When you try and square Nokie's quote with Ed's quote and the schematics as posted earlier in the thread, one can safely arrive at a few conclusions:

1) Despite Nokie's conjecture, the Fuzzrite circuit and the Red Rhodes circuit are not similar. So Ed did not copy Red's circuit, as the respective schematics more or less bear out.

2) The fuzz circuit in the Award amps, within reason, can be considered a schematic for the Red Rhodes fuzz box as made for Nokie in 1962.

3) The fuzz circuit in the Award amplifiers should not be considered an iteration of the Fuzzrite circuit.

Beyond that, I still am curious about the fuzz circuit in the Award amps and how representative it is of the Red Rhodes fuzz unit, not only as used by Nokie, but also by Billy Strange on the Ann Margret single a year prior. Specifically, if the unit was plugged directly into the guitar's output jack would it actually have used input capacitors? Also, the Award circuit uses silicon NPN transistors running off a 35V power supply; what sort of transistors would have been used in the same circuit four years prior, operating off of 9V? My best guess is Germanium NPN, but which ones?

Anyhow, that's about all I got.

I'm not safely arriving at these conclusions and I think it's because I have a question about your premise. I'm not seeing a schematic of the Red Rhodes fuzz anywhere in this thread. Thus, I'm not seeing their respective schematics to bear out the differences.

Beyond that, I find the aural comparison of the FuzzRite as found in the Award amps and the pedal FuzzRite very similar. Of course that is a subjective opinion.

-Marty

PS - All this talk of Red Rhodes has reminded me that I need to buy a 6122 12-string Gretsch. Mike Nesmith's 12-string 6122 was stollen from Red Rhodes guitar shop in 1967 where it was in for repair. I saw that baby on a video recently (Davy Jones passing brought it up) and it is one very cool geetar.

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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby ElT » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:06 pm

Nokie wrote:
Thanks Bob. I have to agree, my preference is for the fuzzrite as heard in the BG-1000. Ultimately, though, that fuzzrite sound is such a one-trick-pony. I can't remember when I used it more than one song in a set. Then again, if someone is playing with a garage band ala the Seeds or Music Machine, I can see it getting more use. I would love to see a demo of that model 400. -Marty


Yes, the elusive 400 and Red Rhodes versions...will schematics ever turn up.

I just wanted to comment on the "one-trick-pony" comment. The reason the Fuzzrite is different than many fuzzes is that IT IS NOT a one-trick-pony. While most fuzzes go from cleanish to full on fuzz, the Fuzzrite is unique in that it's a blend...a cleanish signal from the first transistor mixed with a fuzz of the second. So, as you turn clockwise, the cleanish one fades out and the fuzz comes in. it's really unique. In addition, somewhere in the middle where they "cross", there's a "phasing" that is unique.

I modded a variant so I have separate control over the cleanish signal and the fuzz (the same way a better stereo will have a separate bass & treble control instead of tone) which gives even more variety.

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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby Nokie » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:57 pm

ElT wrote:
Nokie wrote:
Thanks Bob. I have to agree, my preference is for the fuzzrite as heard in the BG-1000. Ultimately, though, that fuzzrite sound is such a one-trick-pony. I can't remember when I used it more than one song in a set. Then again, if someone is playing with a garage band ala the Seeds or Music Machine, I can see it getting more use. I would love to see a demo of that model 400. -Marty


Yes, the elusive 400 and Red Rhodes versions...will schematics ever turn up.

I just wanted to comment on the "one-trick-pony" comment. The reason the Fuzzrite is different than many fuzzes is that IT IS NOT a one-trick-pony. While most fuzzes go from cleanish to full on fuzz, the Fuzzrite is unique in that it's a blend...a cleanish signal from the first transistor mixed with a fuzz of the second. So, as you turn clockwise, the cleanish one fades out and the fuzz comes in. it's really unique. In addition, somewhere in the middle where they "cross", there's a "phasing" that is unique.

I modded a variant so I have separate control over the cleanish signal and the fuzz (the same way a better stereo will have a separate bass & treble control instead of tone) which gives even more variety.

I'll have to give those settings a try!

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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby Brinkman » Mon Mar 12, 2012 11:51 am

Nokie wrote:I'm not safely arriving at these conclusions and I think it's because I have a question about your premise. I'm not seeing a schematic of the Red Rhodes fuzz anywhere in this thread. Thus, I'm not seeing their respective schematics to bear out the differences.

Not sure if you're being rhetorical here. Nokie Edwards said the Red Rhodes Fuzz circuit was built into the Award amps, the schematic of which was posted earlier. Or are you suggesting that the differences are negligible and that Sanner copped his fuzz circuit from the Award amps?

Nokie wrote: Beyond that, I find the aural comparison of the FuzzRite as found in the Award amps and the pedal FuzzRite very similar. Of course that is a subjective opinion.

Yeah, it is pretty subjective. But not subjective enough that I would suggest the differences between the Red Rhodes fuzz effect and that of your typical Sanner Fuzzrite are indistinguishable to the ear.

Besides the issue of whether the Award fuzz circuit is an exact copy of the Rhodes fuzz circuit, which I seriously doubt, we have the issue of how a circuit behaves when placed in different positions in the signal chain. We're talking differing levels of shunt capacitance, impedance matching, and the necessity or exclusion of DC-blocking input capacitors. This is before we even get to the issue of whether Nokie was recording direct or not.

To my ear, there's three types of fuzz: a good tube fuzz, The Red Rhodes/Ventures fuzz*, and then all the others. I'm only really interested in the first two and I'm eager to investigate them for the sake of discovery alone.

*Technically, unknown radio technician/Rhodes fuzz but let's not split hairs here.

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Re: Fuzzrite in amps...

Postby Nokie » Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:53 pm

Brinkman wrote:
Nokie wrote:I'm not safely arriving at these conclusions and I think it's because I have a question about your premise. I'm not seeing a schematic of the Red Rhodes fuzz anywhere in this thread. Thus, I'm not seeing their respective schematics to bear out the differences.

Not sure if you're being rhetorical here. Nokie Edwards said the Red Rhodes Fuzz circuit was built into the Award amps, the schematic of which was posted earlier. Or are you suggesting that the differences are negligible and that Sanner copped his fuzz circuit from the Award amps?

Nokie wrote: Beyond that, I find the aural comparison of the FuzzRite as found in the Award amps and the pedal FuzzRite very similar. Of course that is a subjective opinion.

Yeah, it is pretty subjective. But not subjective enough that I would suggest the differences between the Red Rhodes fuzz effect and that of your typical Sanner Fuzzrite are indistinguishable to the ear.

Besides the issue of whether the Award fuzz circuit is an exact copy of the Rhodes fuzz circuit, which I seriously doubt, we have the issue of how a circuit behaves when placed in different positions in the signal chain. We're talking differing levels of shunt capacitance, impedance matching, and the necessity or exclusion of DC-blocking input capacitors. This is before we even get to the issue of whether Nokie was recording direct or not.

To my ear, there's three types of fuzz: a good tube fuzz, The Red Rhodes/Ventures fuzz*, and then all the others. I'm only really interested in the first two and I'm eager to investigate them for the sake of discovery alone.

*Technically, unknown radio technician/Rhodes fuzz but let's not split hairs here.

Thanks for the clarifications. Now I understand what you meant when you were comparing the Red Rhodes and Sanner FuzzRites schematics. Nokie may indeed be correct that Red Rhodes designed the Award version but I need a little more verifiable information than that. It's not a strong enough premise for me. Hence, I don't yet consider the schematic for the FuzzRite given in the Award amp as a Red Rhodes design. I don't know that Red Rhodes himself ever took credit for designing that one.

The FuzzRite that appears in the Award Amp sounds to me very much like a pedal FuzzRite though I'll agree that the two are not completely indistinguishable.
-Marty


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